Sprint Cup N's & Q's: Watkins Glen

Got a drought? Book ya some NASCAR. But for now, enjoy some Notes & Quotes.

Marcos Ambrose tried his best to make my prediction come true Sunday with a second-place finish. Tires and pit strategy, though, seemed to keep him from really battling Tony Stewart for the win.

Regardless, Ambrose may be ultra-talented on the road courses but look for his No. 47 to a be strong contender to make the Chase in 2010. Dude really is that good -- in everything he drives.

Surprisingly enough, Sunday's rainout at Watkins Glen was just the second time since 1986 that the Sprint Cup Series had a race affected by precipitation at that track. Kyle Petty won the 1992 event in shortened fashion when the race was called after 51 of the 90 laps.

A surprise, of course, because most NASCAR weekends at the 2.45-mile road course feature at least one practice or qualifying session impacted by rain. In 23 years, though, the race had never been rained out prior to Sunday's gullywasher.

Combined with last weekend's rainout at Pocono, Watkins Glen marked the first time since 2007 that two consecutive Sprint Cup races had to be postponed. That year, both May races at Richmond and Darlington got pushed to Sunday afternoon after a Saturday night of rain.

Why is there no type of track cover system in place for a majority of a race track's straightaways? Wouldn't it be easy to adapt a retractable tarp (similar to one that covers a baseball field) just outside of a retaining wall?

Consider it a random thought, but it has perplexed me for a long time. Sure, it'd be tough to get them in place quickly, but when rain is possible before a race the tarps could already be in position.

Jeff Gordon learned the hard way twice over the weekend at Watkins Glen.

First, he qualified the No. 24 deep in the field despite having a car that he thought was good enough for a top-10. Gordon blamed the slow performance on the fact that he had yet to run a full-out qualifying lap at The Glen in the Car of Tomorrow chassis (2007 and 2008 were both rained out), which caused him to be far too conservative in the braking zones.

The bad qualifying spot translated into another lesson at Watkins Glen -- especially in the era of double-file restarts -- that being back in traffic can get a driver caught up in other people's mess very easily. Twice Sunday was the fate for Gordon, the last of which was the harrowing wreck with Sam Hornish Jr. and Jeff Burton.

NASCAR has kept far from ever deciding to use rain tires in the Sprint Cup Series but, according to a NASCAR.com article, the tire supplier seems ready for the task should they be asked.

Goodyear's head of race tire sales Greg Stucker told the website that they've actively developed a second-generation rain tire that could be capable of running in the near future both on the Nationwide and Sprint Cup platforms.

"We're confident we could have a package that would be suitable, if that's what they chose to do," said Stucker of the sanctioning body.

The tire company did a test with Juan Pablo Montoya in the offseason and found that the new tread design that was sporting wider treads and thicker 'blocks' was on the right track.

"We were very happy," Stucker said. "From torrential downpours to puddles and then a little bit of drying condition now and then, I thought the tires performed very well."

Oval rain tires haven't been developed yet, but if these road course tires are available its much past the time in NASCAR's life that it needs to actively find a way to race in the rain.

Last year's rain race in Montreal was a mixed bag for the Nationwide Series, but there's got to be answers on how to keep the rooster tails smaller, prevent the windows from fogging over and create windshields and wipers that are effective at high speeds. Testing, my friends, would go along way into solving those answers.

Rain racing wouldn't be at all like a dry race, but if you've got the technology with fans in the grandstands expecting to see a Sunday road course race, that race needs to be run on Sunday -- wet or dry.

Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)

8-11-2009 @ 9:51PM

gmatclr said...

Glad to see that crew chief change thing worked out for jr.

8-12-2009 @ 8:38PM

kindatuchy said...

Also glad to see Kyle making so many new friends, crying as usual and solidly in the top 12,,,,ooops my mistake. LMAOROF

8-12-2009 @ 9:33AM

Kim said...

Gotta agree with you here, Geoffrey. It is definitely past time NASCAR at least develop the ability and technology to run a road course race in the rain. I know as a fan of the sport, I count on my race being on television on Sunday. I count on staying home, doing laundry and cleaning house while watching the race with my little ones. It is so frustrating to have had that routine messed up two weeks in a row! The technology is there and most the drivers seem willing to give it a try, so what's the problem?

And as for Ambrose, I agree completetly. He is going to be a force to be reckoned with next season and I for one am thrilled! I absolutely LOVE the guy and think he has just the best attitude and a ton of talent. Michael Waltrip hit the gold mine when he hired Ambrose and I am sure he knows it. Will be interesting to see what MWR does with Truex Jr. next year in comparisson to Ambrose as well.

Kim

8-14-2009 @ 8:42AM

sjmeyer266 said...

Race gets cancelled so your house is a mess? Race is on my dinner gets burned! You're my kinda gal Kim! Rain Tires? yeah on a road course the speeds are slower so I think its a good idea. I don't get my company truck tarped for a rain delay (gotta put that one to the boss) On the longer ovals absolutely not tho 190 mph in the rain won't end well. I see Copart sponsoring Harvick in the Nationwide? Time for Stewart to run him into the infield (again) Last time Stewart ran him in Harvick was running for Pedigree Dog Food and my dog Harley growled and I didn't shop at Home Depot for 3 years. At least now I can go to HD again. Some weekends it truly is "Nap Car" 1/2 a beer, 20 laps 2 hour nap, last 20 laps, finish a warm beer, make dinner.

8-12-2009 @ 1:13PM

Ron said...

You might as well stop writing about the need for rain tires. It won't happen. A 3400 lb car is much too heavy to race in the rain no matter what tire used. It's called G forces. If you put a 3400 pound car into a turn at 180 mph or even much slower on a wet track its not going to stick. If it were possible they would be doing it. Goodyear is smart enough to know not to waste time trying. Rain tires are what you use on your street vehicle. The only reason you have tread on street tires is to keep your car from water planing on wet roads. The grooves (tread) disapate the water. If roads were always dry there would be no need for treaded tires. All tires would be bald. There is no magic wet road tread. Have you ever slammed on your brakes or accelerated and slid or spun your tires on a wet pavement? The same thing would happen on a race track only much much worse because the speed would increase the G-forces and acceleration would be next to impossible because of the high HP. If you notice racing tires are treadless because obviously the more rubber you have on the track surface the more grip you have. Tread is not needed. This isn't rocket science fans. My Resume....30 plus years racing and hundreds of hours of seat time.

8-12-2009 @ 2:29PM

Susan said...

Nascar should have started the race earlier. Everyone that was looking at radar knew a major rain/storm cell was moving thru. The TV networks do not want earlier start times.

It is insane to wait around while knowing that a major storm cell is going to hit the track at race time There was also lightning and you can't have fans etc exposed to that. I am fairly certain there was a tornado warning about 25 miles west of the track too. They should have started the race earlier.

8-12-2009 @ 4:42PM

nzcr14 said...

YEAH RIGHT!!!. LETS SEE IF THAT RACE NEEDS TO BE RAN ON SUNDAY when the fans on the grandstands or infields GET STRUCKED FROM LIGHTNING BOLTS AND GET THEIR BODYES ROASTED OR KILLED!!.
LETS SEE how BORING IS GOING TO BE any race ran on
BS RAIN TIRES when the drivers are going to reduce the speeds from the 200miles close and above range to way below the 100 miles range.
Lets see if there is going to be rain racing when
those cars repeatedly begin to slide all over on SPIT ROW on incoming and outgoing rush and increase the multiple hits and knock down of the crew members in general(already happening off/on without the rain in a now low scale).
OUR street cars HIDROPLAN ON POOR WEARED OUT STREET ASPHALT at 50mph and even below at times.
LETS SEE how those heavy COT BULLDOZERS OR even the car of yesterday pre bulldozer are going to AVOID REPEATED SLIDING AND HITTING EACH OTHER LIKE BUMP CARS EVERYTIME THEY HIT THE BRAKE (exspecially in the curves) AT EVEN 75-80-90 mph.
Lets see what happens when all the outdoor entertainments at the tracks begin to get cancelled
before or after the race because the rain.
BADYEAR TIRES does not have an extraterrestrial advanced tecnology to race on rainey days, not they will have.BADDYEAR IS JUST TRYING TO FIND ANOTHER WAY TO ALLIGATE $$$ ON THE NAZCAR TEAM OWNERS!!!.
We been talking about this subject off/on for 6+ months. Can't believe is still food for thoughts.
ARE WE PARROTS OR FANS????????????????????.
does not work for me...

8-12-2009 @ 5:51PM

Bob said...

*To all those who boldly claim that NASCAR vehicles are just too heavy to race in the rain, that no rain tire is going to work, you need to do more research, because the REAL experts disagree (as in NASCAR and Goodyear). They have successfully tested rain tires on those same heavy cars, and they did very well--in fact, the drivers were observed to be greatly enjoying the experience. The primary problem is with visibility, because the temporary wipers attach at the top of the windshields, causing the wipers to lift at higher speeds. Hydroplaning only occurred in isolated areas of standing water, NOT on the main wet surface.

These successful experiments were done on road courses, with speeds only slightly lowered, and with close, exciting racing. The larger ovals may be tougher to pull off, with the higher g-loads of faster corners, but at least they know what CAN be done. It's not magic, it's science, and those with a lot more experience and specialized training know it IS possible, so let's all stop bashing those who favor the idea.

8-12-2009 @ 6:46PM

Opinions aren't bashing Bob. You have obviously done the research so tell us where these tests were done and who was driving the cars. Or better yet steer us to the place you found this information. It would save a lot of time and I would appreciate it. I hope you're not talking about that Canadian Fiasco. That was a joke.

8-12-2009 @ 9:28PM

*Sure thing, Ron. The NASCAR regulars ran newly made rain tires with hand-cut grooves in '97 at Suzuka, Japan. The drivers said the tires held well, with only the visibility hampering their progress--in fact, they had a blast running them. Goodyear eventually manufactured a full line, copying the hand-cut groove design with their machinery, and ran an actual race in Montreal on them. The traction was only a problem when they hit puddles, and once again the visibility was the primary problem, not the tires or the weight of the cars. Just run a search for NASCAR rain racing, and you'll get a number of articles. I meant no offense, Ron, it's just that too many times I've heard this idea called crazy, when in fact they have proven the tires and cars do work. There are obviously issues to overcome, but they're not the one's most people talk about. Peace.

8-12-2009 @ 10:11PM

Actually I do believe I just heard an interview with Jeff Gordon last weekn (may have been two weeks ago), on the Speed Channel as well as read it on NASCAR.com that he was one of the drivers that was testing a "new" race tire to be used on some of the tracks in the rain. He said Goodyear had come a long way and wants to remain the sole supplier to NASCAR so their R&D department was working really hard on coming out with a solution to the rain tire issue. There is lots of money to made there should Goodyear develop the tire, test it, and provide it.

I have also heard that the weight of the vehicle is not the issue. Gordon did complain however about the windshields ability or lack thereof to not fog up and that the wipers were crap. I know you have a lot of experience in racing, Ron but I simply can't believe that with all of today's technology, there isn't a possiblity for these cars to race in the rain.

Kim

8-12-2009 @ 9:48PM

WWWWWWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH BOB......... BRING OWN BOOZE and RELAX.will you?
NOBODY is bashing ANYBODY here.The first amendement is propriety of all others as is yours.
If YA KNOW ABOUT THIS NEW TECNOLOGY,please make us aware of unless you secretly stole it from the underground secret bases of AREA51 NEVADA or AREA 55 UTAH.
YEAH, even if you are right about this tires being tested on THE POOR MAN TRACKS ROAD COURSES where speeds are most of the time under 100 mph,lets try and see if this new EXTRATERRESTRIAL INTELLIGENCE obtained tecnology WILL WORK ON THE REAL 1and 1/2 miles to 2 and 1/2 miles SUPERSPEEDWAYS where the speed is double of the short road course stretch.
EVEN GRANTED YOU ARE RIGHT AND THESE NEW TIRES WORK,
THAT'S IRRELEVANT and a NO GO USE of them new tires
because 95% OF NAZCAR TRACKS ARE SUPERSPEDDWAYS OVALS. Would work on only 2 tracks OUT OF HOW MANY??
Most of the other tracks will still have the problem,
so WHERE IS THE GAIN FONTANA and the longer track MUFFINS GLEN; THAT'S ALL.

AND VISIBILITY, ALTHOUGH ANOTHER MAJOR PROBLEM THAT WILL REDUCE THE SPEEDS EVEN MORE, IS NOT N-O-T the MAJOR PROBLEM after the tires grip to the TAR.
THE #1 PROBLEM is; The FANS GETTING ROASTED ON THE GRAND STANDS FROM LIGHTNING AND THUNDERING.
THE WIPERS now attacched on top of the windshield
CAN SURE BE ATTACCHED SOMEWHERE ELSE so they won't lift or they can BE MODIFICATED with block pins or other gadget when they start to lift.NO BIG PROBLEM THERE.
And returning to the tires, hydroplaning only occurred in some areas of standing water not on the
main surface? ABOUT IT IF THE RAIN POURS DOWN IN BUCKETS OR LOADS WHILE THE RACING IS ON? ISN'T GONNA BE PLENTY OF STANDING WATER EVERYWHERE ON THE TRACK until the few minutes go by for the water to get dispersed on the sides of the tracks????
HOW OR WHAT TIRE IS GOING TO STOP THE 4 TONS COT BULLDOZERS FROM HYDROPLANING AH????.
works for me...

8-12-2009 @ 10:59PM

OH AND MONTREAL although a long 21/2 miles plus course IS A TIGHT SQUICK ROAD COURSE that ended many races for many champions and none champs. To cite some names;M. SHOEMAKER, DEMON HILL, JACK VILLEVIEW, EL CHICO MONTOYA, PATRICK CARPENTER, PAUL TRACY all slammed the long wall on the tight squeeck long dstretch in DRY WEATHER; IMAGINE IN A STORMY WEAT WEATHER.
What i do not understand is; IF NAZCAR HAS ESTRACTED THIS ALIEN TIRES TECNOLOGY that from what they are saying on wathever( NAZCAR RAINING SITE)is
been originated on those other road courses of JAPAN
AND THEY HAVE SUCH TIRES SINCE 1997 IS NOW 2009, 12
YEARS LATER. WHY ARE THEY NOT USING THIS NEW SCI-FI
TIRES YET????.WHY???.

8-13-2009 @ 1:50AM

*Very good point, Anna, about the time that has passed. I have no idea why they haven't pursued this more aggressively. One would think that they could have wiper motors already mounted at the base of the windscreens, with nothing but the spindle to cover up, so they could have the same system as all the LeMans-style cars (who always run in the rain). Maybe they have had trouble solving the higher speeds and banking issues of the other tracks, and don't feel it's worth it only for the road courses--the "Alien Tech News" didn't cover those specifics (LOL). Apparently they don't have all the answers--I know I sure don't. I'll keep digging, and waiting for further tests.

8-13-2009 @ 1:58AM

*Sorry for another post--Anna, you are correct about the heavier rains. They definitely had trouble during the heavier downpours, as do ALL racecars in the rain. Yes, the hydroplaning was worst at those times, but once past those times, they could run quite fast on a merely wet surface. I forgot that part earlier.

8-13-2009 @ 6:16AM

huntsmangil said...

Simple solution is quit having an hour & a half pre race BS session & go back to starting the race at 12:30 or 1 o'clock. This 1 o'clock tv time only to talk for 1 1/2 hours is total stupidity especially when there is bad weather forecast.

A couple years ago they even moved the race up 1/2 hour because bad weather was in the vicinity. Now all they want to do is boost their ratings.

Well the NFL is said to be the top ratings sportscast so start the dam race at 1 or 12:30 like the NFL & let's stop the BS of all this rain postponement or cutting races short. It wasn't broke, so they shouldn't have tried to fix it!!!

8-13-2009 @ 7:22AM

Thanks Bob, I wish them well in their endeavor. Obviously it would please many fans. When I see rain tires working on ovals I'll concede. A loose car on a wet oval should be very interesting indeed. Maybe they should use rain tires exclusively since there seems to be a big problem with grip on race tires on a dry track. Perhaps physics doesnt apply to rain tires.

8-13-2009 @ 12:39PM

*I'd have to agree about the ovals, Ron. All the series' that run in the rain do so on road courses. Those high-speed banked turns might be the deal-breakers. Others achieve very high speeds on straightaways in the rain, but they don't have banking to contend with. I've never found any articles with high-level discussions on the matter. I'll keep poking around for info.

8-13-2009 @ 2:59PM

WEELL GUYS,
Even if the TIRES PROBLEM GRIPPING in rain racing gets solved;done and over and so the WIPERS LIFTING problem THE PROBLEM SAGA will not be over yet.

a)windshields FOG UP INSIDE AND OUT during rain.
the out will be taking cared of from the new mechanics of wipers, but the INSIDE FOG?
A heating system will be needed inside to clear windshields on cars that does not even carry a speedometer or turn signal and other.

b)HOW are the fans in the stands and elsewhere are going to be protected from lightning strikes?.
And yes LEMANS SERIES and F1 NEGLIGENTLY race in the rain ENDANGERING MANY FANS MORE THAN USUAL and SO the DRIVERS and CREWS on spit rows.
BUT THE RACING SHOW SUCKS. UGLY,BORING, ANNOYING because all the extra CAUTIONS and slowing;SO I KEPT AND KEEP HEARING.
2) IF other sponsoring SERIESES SANCTIONING BODY ARE SO NEGLIGENT TO SAFETY,CARELESS,and ENTERTAINMENT LESS ALLOWERS, question becomes;
WHY NAZCAR SHALL DO THE SAME? WHY NAZCAR SHALL BECOME AS IRRESPONSIBLE AS THEM.
DO NOT FORGET THAT NAZCAR IS THE SAFEST OUT OF ALL RACING SERIES.1 of the very few POSITIVES about nazcar todays days. WHY would anyone change that???.
works for me...

8-14-2009 @ 9:50AM

Yeah Bob I was speaking primarily about oval tracks and being there are 30 plus oval track races the chances for rain are more likely to happen on ovals. I would admit the feasibilty of a rain tire on a road course being the cars are setup neutral but as you know oval track cars are setup to make turning left much easier with on the edge setups, staggered wheelbases, extreem camber settings, weight distribution etc. making the G loads much more extreem. Plus the fact there is little that can be done to change these setups in the event of having to go from a dry surface to a wet one.
This in itself make the odds of a successful rain tire on an oval much more unlikely not to mention the problems Anna pointed out. I'm guessing the speeds would have to be reduced at least 50% to make rain tires feasible. Would fans stand for a parade in the rain. I doubt it. JMO

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